Log in

15 October 2013 @ 11:45 am
Spike, Faith, denial, and aggression  
I read a comment that compared Spike and Faith and added that Spike wanted, for Buffy, to “make her feel” in SR. I'm finding an interesting difference between Spike and Faith. Her violence and aggression, especially when turned against innocents, comes from her trying not to feel, trying to avoid her own internal pain through denial and acting out. Spike is aggressive, at least in the beginning, because he's a vampire and that's what vamps do. He feels his pain and does not try to avoid it, but there is some denial going on. In Lover's Walk (that's the one where he kidnaps Willow and Xander, right?), he is in denial – he thinks he can get Dru back – and he is hurting others because of that denial but only because he thinks Willow can help him get Dru back. On the other hand, he is feeling that pain; he's not denying his pain.

I don't know what that says about the characters, if anything, just me musing as I have my breakfast.
red_satin_doll red_satin_doll on October 15th, 2013 08:20 pm (UTC)
You mean my comment? *lol* I hadn't quite considered that distinction, Hmmm. My mind is tired here so I'll do my best.


He does use those exact words in the scene: I know you felt it, I'll make you feel it, you'll feel it again....etc. He's distraught - which of course is no excuse for his actions, any more than they are for Buffy's in DT, or any questionable act by any character in the run of the show. He's a bit like a child at that point - a very dangerous child - whose brain has not yet developed to the point where he can make the connection between his actions and someone else's reaction.

I'm not sure if I disagree with you, but there's an element of denial with Spike as well; in fact I'd say that for all his touted powers of truthfulness and honesty he can be terribly self-deluded sometimes. he puts so much focus and energy on another person, on the women in his life (his mother Anne, Drusilla, Buffy), "put it all on me" that he lacks a self and looks to "the beloved" to "complete" him. He's actually bought into the values of our culture that "two become one" and all that rot (Jerry Maquire: "You complete me". ) Its the idea of fusing with another person. He tries to fuse with the beloved metaphorically or physically; to be "the beloved" sounds like it ought to be a nice idea, someone else focusing laser-sharp and constant attention upon you but in fact it's a huge burden because you also carry the expectations for making that person happy. Spike puts the responsibility for his own happiness at the feet of Drusilla and Buffy - whether it's "Take me out of a world that has you in it", "I hope she fries/I'm free if that bitch dies", or "I got this, the soul, for you."

In a sense, Spike wears his emotions, his pain, like a designer statement, if that makes sense. In Lovers' Walk the "love's bitch" speech isn't meant to mean he is the only one who is love's bitch (ie victim), but that Buffy and Angel are as well; they are all three "love's victim" but he's the only one who is "man enough to admit it". (I guess Buffy hasn't got the stones? *lol*) He actually makes a big deal about his feelings but doesn't know how to change them or deal with them except by violent action, drinking and pleasure, being in a relationship with a woman whom he can focus on and lavish attention; he doesn't know how to actually deal with his emotions, because he's invested in the ideal of "the beloved". (We see that in FFL, in William's interactions with Cecily, whom he loves but we have no idea if he's ever even talked to; and with Buffy, telling her she's a little "in love with death" and then trying to kiss her - trying to seduce her with the idea that she is "in love with death" hopefully leading to her inevitably giving into it, that is, giving in to him as the personification of death. Oh be careful what you wish for Spike.)

I've wondered if some of the subtext/meaning of the line from the song the First uses to trigger him "How could you use a poor maid so?" isn't about that to some degree. It's read literally as "how could you hurt the girl (his victims)?" as he himself keeps saying "don't hurt the girl"; but I think there's another aspect and it came to me when watching "Sleeper". "I got the changes FOR YOU." He still sees the soul as something he did "for Buffy", and ergo she carries responsibility for it, for his feelings, and he needs to let go of that, of her for that very reason. The late seasons are largely about Buffy, Spike, Willow and the other characters "growing up" and taking responsibility for their actions. For a time Buffy, Spike and Faith are only able to objectify each other as "other", either someone to look up to or to take down, while they look to another person to fulfill them. Willow does the same with Tara, and in fact Tara does the same with Willow to a lesser extent: "I am, you know...yours." Angel and Riley both look to Buffy to "complete them" as well, to be what they want her to be.

I don't know if that made any sense?
Dragon's Phoenix: spander coffin dragonyphoenix on October 16th, 2013 03:56 am (UTC)
My mind went in another direction. I knew that when I posted this.

So the "I'll make you feel" comment is from the attempted rape scene, isn't it.

Actually disagreeing is fine, awesome even. I was hoping to get different opinions. And I can see Spike being in denial about relationships, particularly about how the woman he cares for feels. Spike sees it as some sort of holy mystical union, something terribly grand an all encompassing, even when the object of his affections doesn't love him at all. Hmmm, sounds sort of like Andrew but in a less comic-relief kind of way.

I'm a bit less clear on the last paragraph but it's reminding me of fanfiction, actually the Giles hatey fic that you sent me to, where Buffy rescues Spike and in dreams they are told they will become an “Auspicious (umm, something or other, probably whole)”. It's like the great romances, Tristan and Iseult, the idea that two separate people can come together to become one holy being. You seem to be saying that most of the BtVS characters share that ideal.

Actually one of the episodes (Where the Wild Things Are I think) ties in very well to the little I recall of a Joseph Campbell analysis of Tristan and Iseult. The key component I'm thinking of is that when they come together it is in a secret location, a garden, that is something of a holy place. I wish I could recall his term for it. But the image of Buffy and Riley alone in that room, particularly with the vines growing wild, is a definite, although negative given what's going on around them, version of that same image. And I'm using the Spander coffin icon because that is likely a related image as well. ;-)
red_satin_doll red_satin_doll on October 16th, 2013 08:15 pm (UTC)
You know, I did the same damn thing that I complain about when other people do it: talked ALL ABOUT SPIKE. Sorry. *kicks self* When I should have just asked for clarification on your thoughts.

Spike sees it as some sort of holy mystical union, something terribly grand an all encompassing, even when the object of his affections doesn't love him at all.

Yes and it fits very well with the romanticism of "medieval revivialism" "preraphaelites" "neo-gothic" and suchforth - the fantasy of a gentler, more chivalrous but also more mystical time before the Enlightment.

Hmmm, sounds sort of like Andrew but in a less comic-relief kind of way.

infinitewhale made the same comment to me just a few months back and it had never occurred to me before, but it's very true once he got me thinking about it. That's FFL in a nutshell: Spike retelling his life story to Buffy, leaving out his history as William. I didn't realize that on first watch btw so her repetition of Cecily's "You're beneath me" at the end seemed even more harsh; I hadn't realized that was the bits he wasn't telling her. He's a romantic at heart.

You seem to be saying that most of the BtVS characters share that ideal.

Am I? *ponders* Well, that's probably true and in fact something that happens over and over again on the show is that people get terribly hurt when they over-invest themselves in another person at the cost of their own individuality: Buffy and all three of her lovers: Angel, Riley and Spike, although it plays out in different ways each time; Anya with Xander, Tara and Willow. It's usually the fantasy, what they need to see in the other person. Tara and Willow, and Buffy and Angel are the conventional model of heightened romantic attraction that burns away eventually, seeing an idealized version of oneself in the beloved's eyes; Buffy seeks the exact opposite in S6 from Spike - confirmation that she is as bad and wrong as she thinks she is (to excuse or explain how she feels and her behavior); etc.

I haven't read Campbell's analysis of Tristan and Iseult, but that's an interesting parallel with WTWTA. You should do meta and blow people's minds because no one even gives that ep a second glance. *lol* That image we see of them in bed together, surrounded by darkness as the camera pulls away, is one of the single most memorable images in the entire series.

And I've been wondering where the HECK that Spander image comes from, because I don't ship them but it is a fantastic picture, with the old-style coffin. Is that a manip?
Dragon's Phoenix: spander coffin dragonyphoenix on October 17th, 2013 02:36 pm (UTC)
I hadn't noticed the parallel between Spike and Andrew before either. Strazynsky, who wrote Babylon 5, said that each of his characters is an aspect of himself. If that's true of Joss and his characters, and it might not be, then it makes perfect sense that characters would have similar core outlooks.

The icon is by fanbot. I looked long and hard for a Spander icon I truly adored and when I saw that I knew I'd found it.
red_satin_doll red_satin_doll on October 17th, 2013 05:47 pm (UTC)
Strazynsky, who wrote Babylon 5, said that each of his characters is an aspect of himself. If that's true of Joss and his characters, and it might not be, then it makes perfect sense that characters would have similar core outlooks.

I think that's true of any writer and their characters in part because there are certain universal traits that make us all "human". But it can be a problem as well if the writer isn't aware of it and/or becomes overdependent on their own "tropes"

I don't recall if I told you that I'd read online (so take that with an entire shaker of salt) someone in fandom saying that Joss' mother died when he was young and his father (a college professor) sending him away to school. Which would explain a LOT on the show: all mother figures die (except Dru, a "symbolic "mothers". Buff is also a symbolic mother and she actually does die twice. There's also Sheila Rosenburg and Mrs Harris but we only see them for one episode), all men (lovers, father figures) leave and abandon Buffy; plus the way academics and teachers/professors are generally depicted in a negative light throughout the series, Including Sheila Rosenberg and Maggie Walsh. Both of whom are "mothers" but also academics, who align themselves with "patriarchial institutions" and are therefore more "masculine", ie not sufficiently feminine to be considered good mothers. The one teacher who Buffy connects with, the math teacher in Teachers Pet, is killed immediately, as is the counselor in Beauty and the Beast. (The only one who treats her respectfully who doesn't die is the poetry teacher in S5 when she explains that she has to leave his class to take care of Joyce.)

The problemmatic parenting trope as one essayist called it, is one I can identify with in my own life in terms of parental abuse and dysfunctional family dynamics, which is one of the dynamics that drives the show. But it is in itself problemmatic in that it's sexist and restrictive; I felt the absence of more adult role models and loving or nuturing parental figures on the show. I would have loved to see Buffy have an older woman who could have been a mentor for her, but then that would go against the theme of "isolation". But she has friends, and Giles, why not a mature female figure other than Joyce? Why couldn't Olivia have stayed?

That really is a lovely icon, the best Spander one I've seen and has a wonderfully artistic quality.
Dragon's Phoenix: spander coffin dragonyphoenix on October 17th, 2013 06:16 pm (UTC)
I think Buffy had hoped Maggie - that's the name of the Initiative doctor, right? - would have been a mentor for her, which I suppose made it all the more difficult for her when Maggie turned out to be evil.

I would have loved it if Olivia had stayed. I think Joss was deliberately isolating Giles as well. Poor Giles. ;-(

Yeah, I was very, very happy to find this icon.
red_satin_doll red_satin_doll on October 17th, 2013 06:26 pm (UTC)
I think the possibility existed briefly but the minute Maggie told the class her TA's name for her (something along the lines of dragon lady or bitch or something) I just knew she was going to be a "baddie". Part of me wanted to think the opposite - she calls herself a bitch now but she'll turn out to be good - but I suspect I was getting used to how Joss worked by then? Although if nobody is what they seem (another huge theme of the series) then she should have turned out to be "good" I suppose.

I think Joss was deliberately isolating Giles as well. Poor Giles. ;-(

Yep. That's something Buffy and Giles have very much in common. I can understand why he left her in S6 - he'd been trying to pull away from his duties as watcher and her overtly since the first episode of S4 - but it still hurts to watch it. Not unlike men throughout history he has resources (money) and both the ability to leave SD and the luxury to do so when Buffy has neither. Duties keep her tied to SD. I've said often that he is constantly torn between "Watcher" and "father/man" just as Buffy is torn between "Slayer" and "girl/woman"; in Giles' case he is unable to fully commit either way and abandons her on both counts. I don't think he ever integrates the two "halves" of himself the same way Buffy eventually does (which to me is part of the meaning of Spike's "she surpassed you" in Touched.) Except for the brief moment when he approves Buffy's plan in Chosen, perhaps.

And then there's the demon aspect Buffy had wrestled with in herself in S6; Giles try to kill or deny that part of himself by, ironically, having Spike killed.

I actually feel for the guy (I feel for Buffy more, of course); and oddly enough I've written some post-series fic from his POV, which surprised the hell out of me. Not sure if it's going anywhere or I'll ever post it.
Dragon's Phoenix: drac dragonyphoenix on October 17th, 2013 06:45 pm (UTC)
"dragon lady" reminds me of the time Corbin and I saw a license plate that said "Arrogant". We both agreed that, to us, it read, "Yeah, I'm an asshole." ;-)

It's actually sort of interesting that he leaves when in the first episode he's trying to convince her to not reject her duties. She's all "Yeah, prepare me" and he keeps trying to convince her to act as the Slayer but it's her (new) friends being targeted that really brings her back to it.

Giles post-series stories? I would encourage you to post them. In fact, I do encourage you to post them. ;-)
red_satin_doll red_satin_doll on October 17th, 2013 07:16 pm (UTC)
It's actually sort of interesting that he leaves when in the first episode he's trying to convince her to not reject her duties.

Right, I'd nearly forgotten that! Good call. of course at that point he's all Watcher, and Buffy is an abstract concept more than anything else (I assumed she was the first Slayer he was assigned to); I think that starts to break down in Nightmares (his nightmare is watching his Slayer die), unravels further in Prophecy Girl and continues to from there. (It's not until Helpless that an outside - Travers - says "You have a father's love for the child".)

But it's like being a Watcher - he rebelled against "his fate" in his youth, then like you say tries to prevent Buffy from doing so; he's accepted the identity completely and represents the party line. both of his roles (watcher and father) are ones he resists.

I think part of the thing with S7 is that as the de facto head Watcher (we can assume there are others around the world still, but he's the only one in the fight at that point) he becomes in a way the representative of the WC. He tries to get Buffy to once again "toe the party line" but he's far more compromised by their history and by his feelings than he's willing to admit.

Thanks for the encouragement btw! I can see Giles post-series becoming rather comfortable in his role rebuilding the council; he's also an academic, and abstractions are easier to deal with than emotions; he doesn't have to get emotionally involved when it's thousands of girls rather than "the One". So I could go with a more meglomanic Giles and his break with Buffy becoming permanent as they realize they no longer trust each other; or they could go the other way - not complete trust but still some affection and even love for one another.

I think the bits I've written are in the second direction, which isn't that exciting. I guess maybe I want to give Giles a second chance or - IDK, that's how it's come out.
Dragon's Phoenix: drac dragonyphoenix on October 17th, 2013 08:45 pm (UTC)
For some odd reason I've been rewatching S1, some of the episodes more than once. ;-)

he "represents the party line": When we first meet him, he's not quite himself. He's so stuffy that he doesn't quite seem human although he does get over it.

I would want to give Giles a second chance too!
red_satin_doll red_satin_doll on October 18th, 2013 04:20 pm (UTC)
I keep meaning to do a re-watch; sort of busy at this point, so that'll have to wait. I know though that you've been reading bone_dry1013's Origins/Seasons fic and I don't know where you are yet in it (I admit I've read Origins but have sort of cherry-picked the remainder and am woefully behind.) So I don't know to what extent she addresses that but I know she goes into the bond between them to bring S1 more in line with S2 and after.

Aside from that moment in the Bronze with Buffy, he seems so - harmless? Stuffy, yes; terribly pleased with himself in The Witch and almost excited because it's the "first time" he's cast a spell as he says outloud. (which reminds me of Tara in Bargaining "Thanks. It's my first axing.") And I really think that the series is playing that depiction straight. I've read people say that Joss planned the "Ripper" arc from the beginning (or maybe it's being confused with the Dark Willow arc?)

Except I'm not convinced based on what I see. The Giles in S1 doesn't suggest someone who has himself dabbled in the dark arts; he seems rather befuddled a lot of the time. I'm not seeing a "mask" the way we clearly see it with Buffy and Angel (WTTH when Buffy backs away from the Vampyr book. It's underplayed that season but there is something else beside the sunny girlish surface.)

I could be wrong - Joss supposedly decide to take the show in a darker direction in part because of Sarah's gift with drama and tragedy. You can still see them struggling with the balance in Inca Mummy Girl, Bad Eggs etc which have a very S1 feel, but thank goodness they took their cues from Prophecy Girl, the show's first masterpiece episode, an episode that really shows how the bond between Giles and Buffy has strengthened and deepened - he is willing to go in her place in that ep, just as Dawn is in The Gift. It's not just about duty anymore; it's the first time we really see that he has "a father's love for the child". (It's ironic then how the library scenes in PG and Helpless parallel and contrast each other.)

But I just can't read Giles in S1 as having a dark past - or rather, it was something Joss/ME may still have been making up their mind about and hadn't committed to, just as they hadn't yet committed tonally overall. (You see this in the movie version - the best, most memorable scene is a somewhat sexualized dream sequence; the comedy is mostly forgettable.)
Dragon's Phoenix: drac dragonyphoenix on October 18th, 2013 10:34 pm (UTC)
I was being cute with the watching again comment because I'm doing it for my story! I've gone through all that bonedry101 has posted, which is through Teacher's Pet. The main difference I noticed is that she shows us scenes we don't see on the tv show: Buffy packing the stake that Xander later finds; Buffy finding and killing the eggs in the closet of the science classroom. I loved how Origins explains why Buffy has rejected her Slayer calling; I'm using that as a basis for her mindset in my story. It'll be more implicit than explicit.

He does seem harmless at the start of S1. His speech is somewhat affected and he is very geeky about occult happenings. I never thought of that in terms of his Ripper persona, but you're right, it doesn't really gibe.

One thing I have noticed, watching S1 and S7 (yes, I finally broke down and bought a copy) is that there is a parallel between Mrs. Madison, "paralyzed" inside the statue and Willow paralyzed by the really creepy and gross thing that ate some of her skin. I don't know if it means anything of if Joss just likes paralyzing people though.

It's been awfully long since I saw the movie. I don't recall the dream sequence. I do recall the comedy being pretty bad, especially that one vamp who took forever to die (I think it might have been during the credits?)
red_satin_doll: Lesbian Vampire Seal of Approval red_satin_doll on November 6th, 2013 04:53 pm (UTC)
Late comment is late
I loved how Origins explains why Buffy has rejected her Slayer calling; I'm using that as a basis for her mindset in my story. It'll be more implicit than explicit.

One fanwork riffing off another fanwork? Pure catnip to this fangirl. And that's one of the things I love about it as well. I mean it's there in the text of S1- you really do not have to squint to see it, but somehow it gets - forgotten in fandom? the emphasis is either on "S1 sucked" / "the early years were the best" / or the 'shipping. Buffy herself kind of gets lost in all of that.

He does seem harmless at the start of S1.

And in fact it's emphasized repeatedly for comedic effect in S1 - except for scenes like on the balcony at the Bronze in WTTH, which is either 1) the writers did have darker Giles in mind and were playing with it a little, feeling it out the way they were pretty much feeling out "tone" throughout S1; or it was meant to fool the audience, as with Angel and Buffy herself - nothing is as it seems.

But overall Giles seemed like an older male version of Willow in many respects. Or oddly enough, Xander - his geekiness happens to do with ancient texts rather than comic books. If anything, Xander's darkness (the Hyena, etc) is in the text of S1 in ways Giles' isn't yet, at least not onscreen.

BTW, I have no problem saying sometimes "you know what? these two things don't really mesh - sometimes writers just change their mind. It's series tv - you may have to change a major element days before or even into the shooting of an episode." Everything doesn't have to "gel".

I don't know if it means anything of if Joss just likes paralyzing people though.

Well, local max wrote a meta on Witch, Willow and Mommy Issues and what you said makes sense in light of his meta, but I think it's just another "thing" they like to use. Bodily violations, loss of control, consent and automomy runs throughout the series, sometimes addressed seriously and sometimes played for laughs. the problem is when it becomes a trope that's pulled out "whenever" and without regard for what is being implied.

In the same episode Dawn is paralyzed and it's played as a joke but I find it as horrifying as Catherine being imprisoned at the end of Witch (and I just left a review for Catherine was Great, ironically). But when I saw the "Dawn turned into a giant/centaur/whatever" story, my mind went right back to STSP and Dawn being posed as a doll by the other Scoobies. It's actually not funny at all - but it's a reminder that everything in the comics can in fact be traced back to the series in some way.

especially that one vamp who took forever to die (I think it might have been during the credits?)

That was Paul Reubens ("Pee Wee Herman"); I think that must have been an outtake that was tacked on, god knows why. (Nowadays they can at least save that stuff for the DVD extras.)
I tried to find the dream sequence but couldn't - here's the original trailer:
It's interesting that the trailer's VO is Pike's, putting her in the position "romantic object"; and I'd forgotten until I read Origins that the movie ends with her dancing with Pike. I'm glad bonedry too him out of her story.

red_satin_doll: Get it Done red_satin_doll on November 6th, 2013 05:17 pm (UTC)
Catherine trapped in the trophy = Buffy waking up in her coffin.
Dragon's Phoenix: Still Life Reviving dragonyphoenix on November 6th, 2013 09:33 pm (UTC)
Do you think a young Joss got really wigged out by Poe? The Cask of Amontillado is an amazing story! ;-)
red_satin_doll red_satin_doll on November 7th, 2013 07:45 am (UTC)
Do you think a young Joss got really wigged out by Poe?

Oh could be! Even at their "campiest" the early seasons have a very gothic quality to them to contrast with the "normality" of Sunnydale - the Master, Spike and Dru; but also the treatment of female sexuality as we've talked about before; there's something very "victorian" about Joss' sensibilities.

I know I've read that story but it's been a while, so I'll have to re-read it.

I was listening to a somewhat modernized version of W.W. Jacobs' The Monkey's Paw on the radio during a Halloween program and realized that the plot of Forever and esp the last scene is directly stolen from it.
Dragon's Phoenix dragonyphoenix on November 7th, 2013 06:20 pm (UTC)
I totally thought of "THe MOnkey's Paw" when I saw that episode. ;-)
Dragon's Phoenix: Francine bliss face dragonyphoenix on November 6th, 2013 09:32 pm (UTC)
Re: Late comment is late
I seem to recall from Joss commentary on the episode that he kept telling the actors that Giles shouldn't get that close to Buffy but then it ended up with Giles too close anyway. If that's true would that mean Joss wasn't behind the camera for that scene? That seems somewhat unlikely. The Bronze is a pivotal scene.

I love the idea that Giles is another version of Xander. ;-) I know Strazynski (Babylon 5) said that all of his characters were aspects of himself. So Giles, Xander, Andrew, yeah, all geeky but in slightly different ways. But then can we explain Spike and Angelus that way? Joss as a bad boy? *grin* However when I write darker fic I can relate sometimes as aggressor and others as victim.

Everything doesn't have to "gel". One of the nicer things about writing a novel is that I know it's going to take multiple edits so I'll have time to fix things later down the road. And I've never thought about that. Even if not everything gels at the start, anyone who's in charge of a tv series has to really have their shit together right from the start.

I just read a story where the BuffyBot becomes self aware (rec'd through the BtVS Top 5) and one of her big issues is protecting herself in case Willow decides to turn her off. Someone else made the fascinating comment that the BuffyBot stands in for all Slayers (pre-Buffy): assembly line production, easily replaced, not really human - okay or perhaps the Council's view of them.

I recently watched S7. I was sort of wigged by the posing Dawn bit. I knew it was supposed to be funny but I thought it was more on the icky side.

I'd forgotten that was the actor who played Pee Wee! But Donald Sutherland *squee!!!* Although I've definitely seen Rutger Hauer look better. It's been ages since I've seen the movie. My story isn't going in that direction, but we do get a glimpse of the rebel Giles phase! ;-)
red_satin_doll red_satin_doll on November 7th, 2013 08:11 am (UTC)
Re: Late comment is late
he kept telling the actors that Giles shouldn't get that close to Buffy

I've also heard that he was so freaked out by the love scene he directed (flashbacks for Innocence) that he never directed another one in the series after that. Like I said in the reply I just sent you - he's got some very strange, very victorian sensibilities when it comes to (female) sexuality. Buffy ending the series as a "spiritual virgin", cleansed via flamey handfasting ('cause sex is just icky or something - and it gets you killed. Ask Tara! *end sarcasm*) I'm exaggerating for effect but not by much. Only someone who is uncomfortable with the female body and sexuality could think that the space fuck was funny. That attitude is already in the series despite Joss' belief in his own feminism.

And I have no idea who was behind the camera in the Bronze scene; it could be that it was a second-unit direct or that day? I also keep in mind that commentaries are after the fact - often long after the fact.

But then can we explain Spike and Angelus that way? Joss as a bad boy?

Oh we could go on all day about the similarities characters share! blackfrancine wrote a meta that Xander is meant to parallel Angel in S1-2, which seems obvious; he's the nerd boy and Angel is the stud who got the girls while he was waiting on the sidelines. (Although note? - that stereotype is OLD.) OTOH I can make a lot of parallels between xander and spike; they also share a lot of characteristics in common. (Watch him and Cordy in the early seasons - in Anne, for instance; their dynamic is "proto-Spuffy" .) Or Spiral or TWoTW; they come off as brothers who claim to hate one another but there's a foundation beneath that neither one will admit to. Very different from Xander and Angel. infinitewhale pointed out to me that Spike and Andrew are similar in their romanticism, and the wa they uses 'stories' to shape their self-image and worldview, and try to control how others perceive them.

I think maybe Angel and Spike were meant to be the bad boys in relation to the Joss avatar Xander, but both became more interesting or rather Joss, David, Marti etc became more interested in Angel and Spike than they'd intended.

Is that Buffybot story mabus101's that I mentioned to you? Because it sounds similar - and in terms of what the Buffybot represents re: assembly line, those are my comments. I should give credit to lanoyee for reminding me of that parallel.

I thought it was more on the icky side.

As is The Hyena, Xander admitting that he remembers almost raping Buffy while under the spell and laughing about it with Giles; Bewitched, Bothered and bewildered (Buffy thanks him for not talking advantage of her - while she was affected by a spell he accidentally put on her and all the women of SD); Him (although I do find that ep funny despite the wonkiness so sue me); and on and on. Someone did a meta a few years back of all the instances of violation and wonky consent (dub-con,rape played for laughs or handwaved away) during the series, which I've lost the link to, and it was pretty sobering.

But Donald Sutherland *squee!!!*

Joss hated him and I've heard he's not the only person to dislike Sutherland but he's one of my favorite actors. His performance in Ordinary People was amazing because it's so quiet, without any of the fireworks that are being pitched around him by the other characters. Whenever he's in a movie he's often my favorite element - including the video of Kate bush's "cloudbusting":

and YES to a glimpse of Ripper! ;)
Dragon's Phoenix: tigger dragonyphoenix on November 7th, 2013 03:14 pm (UTC)
Re: Late comment is late
I'm not sure how the "flamey handfasting" is supposed to make Buffy into a spiritual virgin? I would have said it was about connection. What's she supposed to do, say "thanks for dying for me" and just run off?

Sex gets you killed: okay I don't recall if she was around or not but wouldn't killing Anya be a better example of that, given how outspoken she is? Also, Tara is the character, outside of the core four, who's death would most upset viewers. Although maybe Dawn's death would have been just as upsetting. But Tara's death also sends Willow down that evil spiral, which we knew he wanted to take her on.

I don't know what the space fuck means. And I'm not trying to dis your hypothesis, I just don't see it.

I read Byron in an English class and Angel is a Byronic hero, to the T. I always though Xander represented Joss, with his inability to get the girl and all.

I believe Spike was meant to be a throwaway character but I thought Angel was always meant to be a main character? Or do you mean "interested in" as in giving more interesting plot points to?

Oops and can't finish this now. Gotta run. ttfn - ta ta for now.
Dragon's Phoenix dragonyphoenix on November 7th, 2013 04:45 pm (UTC)
Re: Late comment is late
I haven't seen that "cloudbursting" vid in ages. Thanks for reminding me of it.
red_satin_doll red_satin_doll on November 8th, 2013 07:02 am (UTC)
Re: Late comment is late
You're welcome! (And I'll certainly reply to your other queries when I have time -final push on this insurance inventory.)
Dragon's Phoenix dragonyphoenix on November 8th, 2013 02:32 pm (UTC)
Re: Late comment is late
No rush. I should be at least trying to focus on NaNoWriMo this month. ;-)
Dragon's Phoenix: drac dragonyphoenix on October 19th, 2013 01:02 am (UTC)
And also on this, when they get to the Bronze in the second episode, The Harvest? Ripper would have totally been able to pick a lock. They should have been through that door in under a minute, probably less. (I don't know how long it actually takes to pick a lock but I'm thinking someone good at it can probably get a door open faster than I can with my keys!)